Fuck Facebook(daringfireball.net)

6 years ago from Pedro Pinto, Product

  • John PJohn P, 6 years ago

    Great article.

    Honestly think it's time to start questioning the ethics of anyone still working at Facebook in 2017.

    Had a CV from an FB employee pass over my email client the other week, went straight in the no pile. Absolutely don't want to work with anyone that has anything to do with such a force of evil on the web.

    8 points
    • Gareth LewisGareth Lewis, 6 years ago

      But what if that candidate wanted to move from Facebook for those same reasons? There could be reasons why the individual has just started looking for alternative employment - personal reasons. Just because that person worked at Facebook doesn't mean he/she shares the same views.

      Not trying to have a go, it's obviously up to you, but it seems a bit harsh. You could've missed out on a highly talented and valued employee.

      44 points
    • Joe Blau, 6 years ago

      That's a pretty toxic view and maybe that works for your company but it doesn't seem like a great strategy. Facebook has about 17,000 employees working on all types of projects. There are tons of conditions that could keep someone working there for an extended period of time even though they disagree with the larger direction of the company. Here are some examples:

      1. They have a family that is dependent on income.
      2. They have golden handcuffs (equity that needs to hit a vesting schedule) and an early exit could cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.
      3. Their specific team is actually not that bad. They may be working on and designing products that you never see and it might be a pretty cool team with cool people. Maybe their projects never see the light of day, but the environment is positive so they've stayed. (This happened to me at Amazon)

      Also consider that if they are trying to leave and get around a better environment, you just prejudicially saying "no" just perpetuates the cycle of them staying at Facebook.

      26 points
      • John PJohn P, 6 years ago

        Plenty of companies in the world doing horrible things have plenty of people working at them.

        I wouldn't hire anyone who worked in blood diamonds or cosmetics animal testing either.

        To counter your points

        They have a family that is dependent on income.

        If they can get hired by Facebook they're good enough to work elsewhere

        They have golden handcuffs ... and an early exit could cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars

        Plenty of people do shitty things that make the world a worse place for money, this is kinda my point. They made that choice and put their ethics aside for that money.

        Their specific team is actually not that bad

        I'm sure there are plenty of "cool" people working there, but they're happy to be a cog in a shitty machine that makes the world a worse place.

        Also consider that if they are trying to leave

        FB hasn't turned shitty over night, it's been shitty for nearly 10 years now. They know what they were signing up for (unlike most of their users).

        4 points
        • John Jackson, 6 years ago

          Based on your unnecessarily toxic stance, I really don't think your FB candidate was losing out on anything.

          33 points
        • Brian A.Brian A., 6 years ago

          Coming back to revise my earlier comment and provide some counterpoints to your counterpoints here.

          If they can get hired by Facebook they're good enough to work elsewhere

          How are they supposed to get hired elsewhere if people like you won't hire them?

          Plenty of people do shitty things that make the world a worse place for money, this is kinda my point. They made that choice and put their ethics aside for that money.

          Do you personally always make the most ethical decision in every scenario? Have you never made a decision that only benefitted you?

          I'm sure there are plenty of "cool" people working there, but they're happy to be a cog in a shitty machine that makes the world a worse place.

          People have different motivations for things; I'm sure that not everyone working at Facebook believes in the mission or is sold on the product. A lot of folks make choices based on what's best for them at the time, and there is nothing wrong with that.

          FB hasn't turned shitty over night, it's been shitty for nearly 10 years now. They know what they were signing up for (unlike most of their users).

          Very true, but I say again: Folks have different motivations, some of which may be what benefits them at the time (e.g., career development, pay, location, etc.). Also, I'm sure that not everyone at Facebook is a long-timer.

          The issue I take with your stance is that it's an extreme, broad generalization for a group of people that you know almost nothing about. You seem to want to shame them for working at a company that you disagree with ethically, and you're punishing them for doing so.

          5 points
    • Ian GoodeIan Goode, 6 years ago

      Had a CV from an FB employee pass over my email client the other week, went straight in the no pile. Absolutely don't want to work with anyone that has anything to do with such a force of evil on the web.

      Not a fan of Facebook personally either (although still in the ecosystem thanks to WhatsApp and Instagram) but this mindset is just unnecessarily toxic. You're a human, not a robot, so why be so binary?

      29 points
    • John Jackson, 6 years ago

      That's a pretty terrible approach.

      15 points
      • John PJohn P, 6 years ago

        Look into what FB as a service does to the mental wellbeing of their users. Of course I'm taking an extreme approach but personally I see it no different than working for a cigarette company (CV would go in the trash from that too)

        2 points
        • John Jackson, 6 years ago

          I feel like this says a lot more about you than it does them. You wouldn't hire someone who has designed something for cigarettes? Why?

          10 points
        • Thomas PalumboThomas Palumbo, 6 years ago

          Comparing Facebook's effects on people with cigarettes is pretty dumb man. What are you even talking about at this point?

          4 points
          • James Young, 6 years ago

            I know they're not quite the same level of danger but I must admit that I'm growing more concerned by the day about just what many of these social media companies are doing and how it impacts people.

            We know for a fact that companies like Facebook and Instagram are very much designing how they trickle updates to their users to keep them addicted. I saw an article recently featuring an ex developer talking about how they flood notifications at certain times etc but can't remember the link right now.

            In an age where suicide is a significant killer of people under 40, the effects on people from seeing perfect Instagram shots or promoted Facebook posts all the time is a real danger - especially when they're purposefully promoted over other more mundane updates in timelines.

            John's stance seems to be incredibly binary and a bit of a stretch and I don't think I necessarily agree with it but to be honest the role of design and its crossing into hardcore psychology at some points and the harm it is undoubtedly doing to some vulnerable people is difficult to ignore.

            0 points
    • John LeschinskiJohn Leschinski, 6 years ago

      This is the dumbest thing I've read this morning. Force of evil? Get some perspective kid.

      18 points
      • Josh Sanders, 6 years ago

        well, he has a perspective... just a very narrow-minded and self-righteous one. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

        4 points
    • Clay MacTavishClay MacTavish, 6 years ago

      Wow that's a bit of a negative rub. Get declined a job at FB? I don't think there is anything wrong with working at Facebook - they are simply trying to make money and grow their platform. I don't think there is a "yeah, lets destroy the internet" sort of intelligent design.

      I think you're projecting.

      2 points
      • Ken Em, 6 years ago

        Seems like John P is a bit angry at the world. As someone noted above, that says a lot about them. I hope they are not as toxic toward their current employees.

        1 point
        • Andy MerskinAndy Merskin, 6 years ago

          True, as a few of you have said, it does speak to John P's worldview (obvious, how would it otherwise?). All John P is suggesting is that it says a lot about the people who choose to work for Facebook despite the assumed ethical and moral implications of supporting a company that many people believe to be attacking an open web, among many other allegations, and thus, chooses not to hire those who aren't doing the due diligence to understand those implications, amidst a wide open job market that designers (and developers) have. The applicant isn't going to go hungry.

          However, without an interview to get a feel for the person's competence and general fit for the company, sure, it's a bit brash to deny him/her the opportunity without a chance to meet and gauge interest for both parties. But at the end of the day, it's John's choice and in his best interest, for him and his company, to hire how he sees fit, barring obvious discrimination policies.

          Why don't we withhold our personal attacks when we disagree with someone's outlook and generate a constructive conversation around this, acknowledging that there will be disagreements and potentially negative views appearing throughout. Not one of us here can truthfully say their worldview isn't without some sort of cynicism based on the actions of others or a larger entity. Facebook just so happens to be the target, and the fallout of its actions brings us many new things to consider, including hiring.

          0 points
    • matt michelsonmatt michelson, 6 years ago

      that's insane

      0 points