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over 8 years ago from Eli Schiff, elischiff.com
First, I must apologise for the starkness of what I'm about to write, I really don't have a better way to express it. It seems like throughout a substantial set of your writing that you have a very high opinion of yourself. In the style and format that you present yourself and the language you use throughout, it just doesn't seem very humble. Granted, in the world of the critic, this is an asset and allows for a more honest expression of your opinion but it comes of quite harsh.
Outside of that, you make some good points. I have always believed that no one is above reproach, that if I feel I can contribute constructively to a design or a process, that as a member of the community that is perfectly acceptable, bravo for supporting this belief.
Personally, I think that the over application of 'flat design' is really heading the wrong way, and that interfaces that are minimal for the sake of aesthetic will always be less user friendly than interfaces designed to achieve a goal and accomodate a task. I think real design is more about the latter and less about the former.
Finally, more of a P.S, not everything is a fallacy, and while most of your use of the word is valid, there are a few instances where it doesn't really apply. 10pts for finding a thesaurus, -10pts for only using it once...
I appreciate the feedback.
If you could, please do point out the wrong uses of 'fallacy,' it would be a big help.
Generally it applies only where the person making the point or stating their belief is clearly and by some observable means incorrect, yet several of your articles make use of it when referring to topics that may have more than one correct or appropriate viewpoint or alternatively more than one accepted version in which case it is generally better to simplly state that there are alternative viewpoints rather than that it is a 'fallacy'.
From the Apple dictionary:
fallacy |ˈfaləsē| noun (pl. fallacies) a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument: the notion that the camera never lies is a fallacy.
Logic a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
Faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument: the potential for fallacy which lies behind the notion of self-esteem.
Etymology:
ORIGIN late 15th cent. (in the sense ‘deception, guile’;
To me these all point to an argument that is based around misdirection which is how I intended to use it in my writing. Perhaps I'm reading these definitions wrong? If you could elaborate further that'd be great.
You nailed it with 'deceptive or misleading', my point is that in a few cases which I'll try and find when I get a bit more time you've use it where there isn't (to my understanding) any deceptive or misleading intent, or, as I said earlier, it's mearly a contentious but none the less valid opposing belief you've labelled as a fallacy. Food for thought :)
to engage in criticism one need not have worked at a company and know the internal operations.
I've never known this to be true. Sometimes with operations, mostly with engineering. I remember speaking to a product manager at Google Analytics. He said that designing a better GA interface and user experience is so easy compared to the actual implementation. The code for GA is 10+ years old; a relic from it's pre-Google days (Google acquired the original company in the mid-2000s). Simply adding a radio button can take two months of work. It's staggering to think that the most advanced software engineering company in world has this problem. But they do and I'd venture to guess that most shops do. From the armchair, you could not know this.
However, I’ve received feedback from many people that they didn’t know particular words and appreciated wikipedia links to them.
It's not just about the wikipedia links. It's also the snideness of your jokes in the image captions. Your bit about Mike Monteiro "changing" his position over a year. It's all just so smug.
It’s empty rhetoric at best, stifling debate at worst.
Yes, when it's used to deflect. But I don't think that's what those people are doing. The gut-reaction one has when they see something for the first time can not always be the most measure response. Or ultimately, what one truly believes. That's why you "give a few minutes." Form an opinion when you know what it really is.
I’m opening up the conversation to perspectives that have been closed off
It's not closed, dude. Nothing is closed. Nothing is sacred. There isn't any design oppression going on. You're an art historian, so you know this is true. Every major art movement is a reaction to the dominant, preceding movement. Make something that goes against the grain, visually. Make waves. Engage in your peers about why they made certain decisions. Defend your decisions. This is why the internet is amazing. You can make so many things and publish/deploy so easily.
Simply adding a radio button can take two months of work...From the armchair, you could not know this.
I don't claim to know things of this sort. I don't think they're particularly important when we are talking about making judgements about the qualities in an interface. From the Armchair Fallacy:
Short deadlines and client misdirection are not a sort of alchemy that makes bad design good. If leadership does not make strategic decisions for ideological reasons or otherwise, that is something that can and should be discussed by critics. But any designs in question may nonetheless be criticized for their qualities.
and
To criticize a work, one may cede ground and attempt to embrace the constraints of the original project, but this may lead to conclusions that lack rigor or are unimaginative because they carry the flawed assumptions of the original design.
—————
Your bit about Mike Monteiro "changing" his position over a year. It's all just so smug.
Did he not change his position? From the Armchair Fallacy:
Criticism is more readily accepted when deferential, but it need not be polite in order to be valid.
—————
The gut-reaction one has when they see something for the first time can not always be the most measure response. Or ultimately, what one truly believes.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. From the Armchair Fallacy:
Both visceral responses and thorough examination are encouraged, with the latter generally being more convincing.
—————
Nothing is sacred
Maybe you don't hold things to be sacred, and that's great. I'm all for 'strong opinions, weakly held.' But that doesn't mean that others do not dogmatically hold things to be sacred. And those things need to be questioned.
I don't claim to know things of this sort. I don't think they're particularly important when we are talking about making judgements about the qualities in an interface.
This is what I take issue with. You don't know what you're talking about yet you're criticizing it anyway. So it's worthless to the designer who needs help and it makes you look like a massive a-hole.
Did he not change his position?
No he did not. "Throw[ing] another designer under the bus," doesn't equal "design critique". The expression at hand is about abandoning someone for self-gain. What happened was, a designer reimagined the iOS7 icons on Dribbble and then "offered" it to Apple, not to help a designer make progress (actual design critique) but to show how much "better" they are. If the iOS7 icons were poor, this new design did not help anyone understand why.
Om's original tweet is constructive feedback. He's posing a question, trying to get clarity, which lead to thoughtful critique. Then someone just stuck in a Dribbble shot like "I did it! All done!" Like, no dude. Get in the conversation first.
Maybe you don't hold things to be sacred
Ok, I was getting at your victimization. You are not oppressed. You can question things.
PS to constantly quote a blog post you wrote like some source of Truth is realllllllly lame.
I don't claim to know things of this sort. I don't think they're particularly important when we are talking about making judgements about the qualities in an interface.
This is what I take issue with. You don't know what you're talking about yet you're criticizing it anyway. So it's worthless to the designer who needs help and it makes you look like a massive a-hole.
I am critiquing aesthetics and usability. These are visible for anyone to see. The conditions from which the design emerged are a secondary and interesting thing to explore as well. But crucially what matters is how they result for the user.
Did he not change his position?
No he did not.
He absolutely did.
What happened was, a designer reimagined the iOS7 icons on Dribbble and then "offered" it to Apple, not to help a designer make progress (actual design critique) but to show how much "better" they are. If the iOS7 icons were poor, this new design did not help anyone understand why.
I've written about the topic of unsolicited redesigns before. I don't think they're the [evil](www.elischiff.com/blog/2015/2/3/unsolicited-uninformed-redesigns) practice that you seem to believe they are.
to constantly quote a blog post you wrote like some source of Truth is realllllllly lame.
I prefer not to write the same thing repeatedly. I don't think that's a crime.
The conditions from which the design emerged are a secondary and interesting thing to explore as well. But crucially what matters is how they result for the user.
Designers work in a set of constraints: technical, business, organizational, etc. Even design itself can constrain your decisions. In order to provide a meaningful, useful, and actionable critique, you must understand them and work within them. Otherwise the feedback is useless.
Don't take this the wrong way, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but everything you've said makes me think you're a designer just starting your career. When I first started out, I was really idealistic about UX. Literally, nothing else mattered expect the user experience. But if you ever work for a technology company or a shop with an existing product, you'll start to understand how difficult it is to be an idealistic designer. You'll start to really understand these constraints and ultimately appreciate them. They help you focus on the user and what they really, truly need to make progress.
I've written about the topic of unsolicited redesigns before. I don't think they're the evil practice that you seem to believe they are
I don't think I ever said that. I'm talking about critiques and I'm starting to see that you and I have really different definitions. I've roughly defined what a design critique is in my mind: A meeting where a designer presents work and context to other designers in order to make progress on the piece of work. I'd love to hear you're definition. And as a follow up, how can an unsolicited redesign work as a critique?
Designers work in a set of constraints: technical, business, organizational, etc. Even design itself can constrain your decisions. In order to provide a meaningful, useful, and actionable critique, you must understand them and work within them. Otherwise the feedback is useless.
I believe the suggestions I make in my critiques are well within the range of possible choices a practicing design team could make. Especially when it comes to judgements of communicative value. Eg. explaining that a button with shading and a border is more evocative than a textual button does not require me to know any organizational constraints outside of potentially having an understanding of why they may have gone in one direction as a part of my analysis.
I'd love to hear you're definition.
Your understanding of critique is certainly different from mine. Mine of course includes your formal academic style critique, but it is also much more. Critique for me is evaluation, discernment, judgement and analysis. I'm not an expert on film, literary or architectural criticism, but from my limited understanding no one expects those forms of critics to know all constraints of those they critique. Nor are those critics required to sit in a room in which they are presented with work and context in order to "make progress." They simply evaluate according to their stated criteria for judgement.
explaining that a button with shading and a border is more evocative than a textual button does not require me to know any organizational constraints
This is probably true. This would probably not be a worthwhile design critique either, in my opinion. The answer is boring. A style guide can easily answer this kind of debate. Critiques for me are more about systems, workflows, behaviors, than visual treatments.
Nor are those critics required to sit in a room in which they are presented with work and context in order to "make progress."
This is really clarifying. You're talking about art. In that world, art can exist for art's sake (l'art pour l'art) and doesn't require the constraints of the artist. But what I do, what I imagine most people on DN do, is not art. I make systems. I create interfaces. I solve problems. I help customers make progress with their work. In order to understand a system, you have to understand the constraints. Art can exist in a vacuum; design can not.
So you've validated something that I've been thinking for a while. There needs to be a new word for the work that I do. The work that visual designers, like yourself, do is good and important but it's really different from what I do. We speak the same words but not the same language. Our words mean different things and it makes for messing conversations like this one. You have a role in an organization but it's probably not on my team. We don't make art.
The answer is boring. A style guide can easily answer this kind of debate. Critiques for me are more about systems, workflows, behaviors, than visual treatments.
You practice critiques about systems, workflows and behavior. Thus critiques could never be done about visual treatments...
So you've validated something that I've been thinking for a while. There needs to be a new word for the work that I do. The work that visual designers, like yourself, do is good and important but it's really different from what I do.
You're hardly the first to try to distance yourself and design from lowly "art". Did you know that design was originally called a "useful art"? But of course we're all too logical today to admit such a thing to ourselves. Art is too subjective and irrational. If you believe such things you have an incredibly limited view of art.
I agree with all of the points you've made throughout this conversation Eli. You two are in fact talking in different manners about what criticism is and I would definitely prefer reading your criticism and actual thoughts on major topics in design rather than read inhouse design critique conversations like mentioned above. There is a difference between critiquing 'w'ork for completely practical reasons, and providing a critical spotlight on a product of all of that practical design thought.
Vignelli said graphic design would never truly be a canon worthy of respect until it garnered real criticism from within it's walls and from outside. I think this is the type of writing and criticism that he was imagining for graphic design, however aimed at our still young digital/product/interface design world.
Also relevant to the discussion about art and design (as one entity in my opinion)
For what it's worth I appreciate the links to some of the more theoretical and philosophical references within the writing. This is in tune with actual academic writing acting as footnotes.
Vignelli said graphic design would never truly be a canon worthy of respect until it garnered real criticism from within it's walls and from outside. I think this is the type of writing and criticism that he was imagining for graphic design, however aimed at our still young digital/product/interface design world.
Absolutely!
Shahn raises an interesting point. I'm not too familiar with his work, but as far as Kandinsky's modernism the quote isn't too surprising. My disagreement with the quote is its bias towards trusting the avant garde. The avant garde is littered with trash that only resonates with those seeking to be part of an exclusive group of contrarians who want to appear 'in the know.' It is a mistake to trust the faux-progressivism of avant gardism simply because it it is new. There's no guarantee that it will later resonate with the masses, only that if imposed for long enough they will begin to merely tolerate it.
I'm sure that Shahn had a lot of great things to say other than that, I just don't happen to agree with him on that point.
For what it's worth I appreciate the links to some of the more theoretical and philosophical references within the writing. This is in tune with actual academic writing acting as footnotes.
I'm glad they're useful :)
My interpretation of that quote is more like every layer of the pyramid is a sieve that certain elements of the avant garde pass through towards a wider acceptance. Not all of the "trash" as you call it will make it through this cultural screening and in to the next level of normal, but of much of these incredibly large, progressive view points emerge from the art world first.
I think a lot of what I call "trash" does pass through which is rather unfortunate. The art world is driven by the art market, which cares not for excellence, but for what is known as artspeak. Artspeak is what justifies high prices, which is what gets media attention, which is what gets artists into textbooks. So even the stuff that passes the test of time is subject to question.
This elitism has always been true to an extent in the art world even prior to modernist art. Art patrons imposed their taste on the masses. Yet there is something viscerally compelling to even the layman about the aesthetic sophistication and expressiveness of eg. romanticist art. You don't need to be taught to enjoy it like you do with most of modernist and postmodernist art.
much of these incredibly large, progressive view points emerge from the art world first.
Perhaps you can clarify this, it sounds interesting.
Not trying defend one side or the other, but this just sounds like major technical debt and hopefully has changed with the new Google Analytics layout:
I remember speaking to a product manager at Google Analytics. He said that designing a better GA interface and user experience is so easy compared to the actual implementation. The code for GA is 10+ years old; a relic from it's pre-Google days (Google acquired the original company in the mid-2000s). Simply adding a radio button can take two months of work. It's staggering to think that the most advanced software engineering company in world has this problem.
It's crazy tech debt. And it's still a problem as far as I know. I assume that eventually they'll need to reconcile it but until then, it represents a big tech constraint.
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Have feedback?
First of all, it’d probably be helpful for you to take a look at my framework on design criticism Criticism and the Armchair Fallacy.
From the Armchair Fallacy:
and
Back to your points:
I’ve never claimed to have achieved perfection. Frankly I don’t even aspire to it. I do aspire to make good design though.
On the other hand, perfection is something that I will be covering later on. Interestingly enough, it’s part of the modern minimalist ideal that can only be reached through reduction.
This is actually very helpful feedback. I’ve been conflicted about including links to definitions. It is not just the issue of appearing condescending. When I link to commonplace words, I myself am the one who looks stupid. However, I’ve received feedback from many people that they didn’t know particular words and appreciated wikipedia links to them. It’s a tough tradeoff. At least when it comes to definition, I’m just going for clarity. I would be curious if you have any advice when it comes to this.
It’s empty rhetoric at best, stifling debate at worst. We need these discussions. Telling people to wait a minute is hardly brave, and ultimately has led this to be on the whole a pretty vacuous debate.
That’s where I’m coming at it from.
Quite the opposite, I’m opening up the conversation to perspectives that have been closed off given that the industry is in almost universal agreement about the minimalist aesthetic.
Dimensional design is, you will admit, marginalized. I am positive in that I hope for a day when formerly understood principles are engaged with. I am attempting to resurface those. At the same time I do have to discredit fallacious arguments.